Click-Free Loop Fin Fout Setting is Part-Based

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

On Rec2 Window there are two settings Fade In and Fade Out.

Set them to the lowest setting (above zero) of 0.63 to achieve a click-free looping recording with a trig-based two bar recording. [or however many bars the user chooses].

Pro Tip: The settings of Fin and Fout will be remembered - not by the Bank, nor by the Pattern, but rather by the Part.

So if the Part is changed from 1 to Part 2, the Fin and Fout will then need to be again set to that lowest setting (or whatever setting the user chooses). It isn’t all that inconvenient as there are only four parts.

But the trick is to understand the Rec2 settings are Part-based. Not a global setting, so when a new Part is selected, it’s default Fade In and Fade Out will be at zero, and therefore there will be a click sound at the start and end of a realtime loop recording. Set Fin and Fout to 0.63, no more click.

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#2

Not only but also the Fin Fout is per Track Recorder, so each of the Track Recorders will need to have the Fin Fout set to 0.63 for click-free recording each time a new Part is selected.

In light of this, most likely to set up the Fin Fout settings for however many tracks a user usually records with, do that on Part 1 say, then copy that Part 1 to 2, 3, and 4.

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#3

Personally I haven’t used fin/four in months, I hardly ever have any issues with clicking when I use track recorders (and when I do I’d rather apply fades manually) and with pickup machines it will click a lot of the time even with no input (literally no cables) and unreasonably long fin/fout, because there appears to be a bug that sometimes inserts about a dozen samples Of junk data at the end of the buffer when using pickup machines. I could see it being useful for so.e live setups though.

the trouble I’ve had is that even on the lowest settings fin/fout will give an audible dropout at the loop point.

#4

There’s a unconfirmed click bug that can appear, once it’s there pickups click even when recording silence, has happened to me a few times and fixed by reloading project to an earlier state.
Never had the xtra data on pu’s, use them heavily every time I power up the machine, sometimes things can get wonky when switching between parts with different recorder settings, I usually set them up the same across parts unless I need them to be different…

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#5

I spent a good chunk of time figuring out how to replicate it and collecting some audio files that demonstrated it happening when there was no input connected and the gate was set high enough to get rid of any self noise, but I was so busy this summer I still haven’t gotten a chance to write it up and submit a ticket.

#6

track recorders and bpm-sequenced drum machines outta have no issues mostly if the sounds don’t have much tail.

right now though i’m recording audio clips from ableton, sometimes it is a 1, 2, or 4 bar looping section of a song, or a looping section of an original composition loop preparation.

ableton is synced to the time and transport from the Octatrack, works okay although i’ve noticed it requires at least one or two plays through the loop before ableton comfortably plays properly in sync when starting from a stopped state, and sometimes even 3 or 4 repetitions of the loop playing until the two are in sync.

but even so, when capturing the loop, i detect a click.

i don’t think it’s a problem at all, and in fact would be surprised if this wasn’t the case with the material i am sampling… also, the starting point say for a 4 bar looop section of an electro-house track in ableton isn’t necessarily placed exactly on the perfect starting point of a bass drum with nothing else … there are other elements.

elektron states explicitly in the manual, set the Fin Fout points to just above zero if any clicks are happening in a loop recording.
didn’t really do any sampling at all with the mkI years ago, not sure if the scenario was the same back then although i would imagine the scenario is similar.

#7

I find that the fin/fout curves are way too quick (I believe they’re logarithmic and increasing the time just moves them without actually changing the fade time/curve at all) and manually applying fades in the editor always sounds better for me.

One thing I’ve noticed with the pickup machine clicks is that after 3-5 passes of overdubbing they almost always get completely buried and go away, so if you’re using PUM’s to build up a loop in multiple passes they aren’t a huge problem, but if you’re actually live looping it’ more of an issue because even with dead silence I often get very loud clicks.

Anyhow, everyone’s workflow is different so whatever works for you works for you, but for me manually fxing clicks in the editor is almost always much better than using fin/fout and it’s definitely worth experimenting with both approaches and seeing which one fits your workflow.

#8

ah, interesting, i must admit, never used the pickup machines … but the workflow/user-experience would most likely be completely different to the track recorders.

also for live playing, some kind of actually perceivable sound of fade is quite possibly going to be quite desirable.

whereas for recording smooth looping clips of sequenced electronic dance genre, the Fin Fout is more of a convenient way to stop the clicks associated with an ambient reverb of a previous synth before the start of the loop, or starting recording just slightly into the start of a bassdrum event, or a background vocal sample nearly ending but not quite before the end of a two bar loop recording by the Octatrack of some track or other.

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#9

fascinating, what do you mean exactly - there must be some difference, surely?

but yes if they are logarithmic and very imperceptible then this would make sense, it is more a functional mechanic rather than an effect of fading per se. i should experiment and hear the difference.

#10

There’s an old thread on here someplace where people figured out that as you increase the fin/fout time it doesn’t actually change the slope of the fade, it just starts the fade soner (fout) or later (fin) but the actual fade itself is just as steep.

If I was doing more live sampling than I do (although I do some,but for whatever reason I’ve never had a problem with clicking) I’d probably use fin/fout because they’re definitely convenient for that, but when I’m recording a loop for using later, it just seems like I can get a much shorter fade (if I need a fade at all) that will keep it from clicking but is so fast it isn’t noticeable. With fin/fout even at the shortest settings if there’s a reverb tail or something that sustains across the loop point I can hear a quick dropout where the fades are, even at the shortest settings. Sound kind of like a sloppy tape splice (i.e. the kind of tape splices I do because I’m not that good at it). If there’s nothing sustaining across the loop point then I almost never get a click so fades aren’t even an issue.

But it’s definitely down to my own workflow right now, I can absolutely imagine scenarios where fin/fout would be really convenient (plus reverb or delay or just having other stuff playing on other tracks can usually cover up the dropout well enough that nobody is likely to care about it)

#11

i thought there was going to be an issue of perceptible ‘unprofessional’ fade when using Fin and Fout, and yet my experience has not detected this.

something interesting i have noted that i didn’t expect - if setting a loop on a dance track that goes for 4 bars on ableton synced to the OT, then sampling that realtime (using the aforementioned settings of Fin Fout 0.63), with the Record Trig at the start of a 4 bar pattern length on the OT, it works a treat.

Not that it would need to be a 4 bar pattern length on the OT to capture 4 bars of incoming audio from ableton.

But if i set a Record Trig on bar 3 of a 4 bar pattern length on the OT, to start the recording half way through the looping 4 bar section on Ableton, it doesn’t work as seamlessly. I need to then go and manually set the 4 bar section to be starting exactly where i want it to starting on Ableton. Then set a Record Trig on step 1 of bar 1 on the OT.

Weird but strange phenomena i guess and it could merely be imagination although i don’t think so.

#12

There’s a bit of insight into the workings of Fin/Fout here, although leaning towards PUMs

I use a Google image keyword search when I want to find certain stuff like this [diagrams etc]

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#13

cool … not playing over the loop point seems to be a sensible idea suggested by Open Mike.

synchronised drum machine recordings to a Flex machine most likely will not have any clicks as also mentioned in the thread.

anyway manual reading for the win. the manual said to set Fin and Fout to the lowest possible setting above zero to avoid a click if a click is happening. I did that, problem solved.

it’s ironic that i was looking forwards to forgetting ableton forever when the Octatrack arrived, but for some reason i’m finding it is really useful when synchronised to the time and transport of the Octatrack. Not for interactive song making or anything, just file selection and transfer. The Analogue Digital converters of the OT are sounding super nice.

so much content on the computer drive … rather than go through and put it all in special folders, trying to imagine how i would want everything to be at some future place in time, i just work with what feels enjoyable in the moment with the convenience of the computer screen to navigate about content. Then, rather than go into usb mode on the OT, connect a usb lead, find the folder with the file on the computer, copy across to the OT, go out of usb mode, then load the file to a Flex or Static machine …

i just drag the file to ableton and press play on the Octatrack. sample the audio. Hey presto easy and immediate workflow. But yeah, doing things this way requires the Fin and Fout to be set to 0.63

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#14

I only notice fin/fout on continuous sounds like pads and drones and things, on stuff that has some space in it, drum parts or melodies or whatever it works fine for me but also those kinds of sounds basically never click for me anyhow, the sounds where I get the occasional click are the same sounds that tend to have an audible dropout if I record them with fin/fout.

I’ve probably been overstating some of this though, to be honest. this is the kind of stuff that I pay attention to if I’m sampling things in advance to use later, if I was sampling live in real time I wouldn’t worry about it at all. It really is just a tiny blip of silence that would pass unnoticed in a live setting. I wouldn’t want to make anyone who’s considering an OT worry that this is a big problem, other than pickup machines clicking a lot for some people (and even unreasonably long fin/fout times don’t keep it from happening for me, whatever is making it click it seems to be something that’s happening to the audio AFTER the fades are applied) this is really minor stuff that hasn’t really had any effect on how useful the OT is for me. The OT is great.

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#15

from posts over the years from other users i got the impression that the Pickup machines were something of an afterthought, and if someone really wanted a Looper, other devices could be better suited to such activity.

anyway talking of the fabulousness of the OT, i gotta say, the new Audio Editor quick access button makes the Octatrack go next level as regards workflow.

edit: whoa yes i just noticed a 4 bar sample just then having a bit of a dip sound on the loop, after recording it with the Fin Fout at 0.63

Changed the record setting to Fin being 0 and Fout being 0.63 and the dip isn’t there and no click is there either.

I should try recording without the 0.63 setting a bit more. Leave the fades at 0 then use as required.

#16

I’ll say as a generality that I always use both pickups and flex recorders heavily every time I use the OT and I always use the min fin/fout settings.
Most of the time my loops don’t click.
Sometimes I get clicks but mostly with slices or start points, not straight loops…

#17

something i’ve noticed, if a file clicks on a flex recording, setting Fin and Fout to 0.63 will fix that, and the nano-fade isn’t noticeable, or barely noticeable at all.

but if a loop recording doesn’t need the Fin Fout 0.63, then if that nano-fade is applied to that recording, then it is slightly noticeable. well, this is from doing the same recording twice on a couple of loop captures tonight.

early days yet for me though really to be making empirical observations.
never sampled with the mkI lol.

#18

I don’t import loops and almost never use the editor, so for clarity I’ll add that whenever I talk about clicks they have to do with loop recordings made from the OT…

#19

ah yes. the only thing i’m using the editor for is to access the convenient “Save and Assign Sample” and Save to next available Flex slot.

I’m not importing loops, although am recording 2 and 4 bar sections of some prog house tracks, using Ableton synced to the OT.

Currently i have the Fin and Fout settings back to zero while doing this and in fact there are no clicks going on. Depends on the track’s content i guess.

Something to mention re/clicks if they do appear, one workaround is to slightly adjust the Att level upwards, and set the Len to one beat less than the length of a clip, then set Rel to around midday. Preferable to avoid them altogether though.

Very much enjoying the mkII experience all round.

#20

Yeah. I’ve said it in other threads, but the funny thing for me is that pickup machines are the main reason I finally got an OT, the clickyness made them mostly useless for me, but I actually haven’t missed them at all because I ended up finding so many things to do with it that I couldn’t have even thought of before it was actually in my hands. Honestly, at this point even if they didn’t click I’d probably opt to use flex machines and track buffers (and sometimes delay with the feedback on 127) rather than pickup machines for real time recording and looping because it’s a better fit for the way my workflow is developing.