Why is there no pattern/project management tool from Elektron?

[prydal]

I hope so.
Maybe ai can program something like that for us?
I

[tdmusic]

I think the main issue is there’s no documentation about how the Elektron machines store patterns etc as MIDI Sysex, so it’s really hard for developers to build applications that interact with them. I don’t see AI being able to assist there as it’s really just trial and error to decode these formats.

Would love to see an official tool from Elektron, but failing that, if they documented the Sysex format it would make building a tool like this 10x (maybe 100x!) easier

[bibenu]

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve read in the last month comments like “We could easily do X if elektron only published Sysex Format or Saved Project format”

Someone should start a feature request thread. Not me. I’m not asking for it. But it’s been mentioned here and here

[DavidL]

Yeah, i’ve commented on atleast one. I get why people want it, i also get why Elektron would be dragging their feet.

[Blasted_pingin]

I’ve lost count of the number of posts in the Request threads. Nobody can even tell if anyone at Elektron has ever read it.

I meant each of people interested sending email at feature-request@elektron.se.

@bibenu

“We could easily do X if elektron only published Sysex Format or Saved Project format”

At least one claiming this could give it a try if they would publish Sysex info.

@DavidL

i also get why Elektron would be dragging their feet.

Why?

[bibenu]

@Blasted_pingin

Why?

Things like

@DavidL

Unfortunately, this

@alisomay

Please do not change the sysex format again

Is probably why they won’t document their sysex. They lose control over their own APIs and have to maintain backwards compatability, support community asking questions, they’ll get hounded when stuff breaks, and they can’t make the changes they want/need for the feature they’re building.

[alisomay]

@Blasted_pingin

feature-request@elektron.se

Did my part just now

[alisomay]

At least for rytm you may use my sdk to write one. I’d be pleased if it is used for that kind of project.
I don’t have interest and time to do a frontend and write that kind of software but I’d contribute and give support to the person who’d be interested in doing that.

[Lizard-of-Oz]

@DavidL

They lose control over their own APIs and have to maintain backwards compatability, support community asking questions, they’ll get hounded when stuff breaks, and they can’t make the changes they want/need for the feature they’re building.

I heard a lot of this kind of reasoning about 20 years ago, right before Web 2.0 started taking off. Then, all of a sudden, people with that mindset would miss out on all the cool stuff other people invented for free around those products that had an open API, which could boost those products’ value enormously.

BTW, Elektron has enough experience in building the APIs for their devices, so I’d assume the current APIs are mostly stable (e.g. the original AR came out 10 years ago), and adding small features (like new models or parameters) is not a big deal for developers to keep up with. But if every small change requires reverse engineering that shit again, this becomes a pain in the ass. You shift the burden of keeping up entirely to those people who put in the effort to add value to your product. That does not sound like a good idea to me.

[jemmons]

@Lizard-of-Oz

Then, all of a sudden, people with that mindset would miss out on all the cool stuff other people invented for free around those products that had an open API

Yes, clearly the lesson of Web 2.0 is that open APIs win and everyone who built a walled, proprietary platform swiftly went out of business and are not now the most valuable companies in the world

[Blasted_pingin]

As long it is mentioned as unofficial, i don’t see why people would ask anything to Elektron. It is unofficial, you take the risk, that’s it.

Jailbreak forced Apple to implement a lot of features they would never even thought about. Point is: you are not interested AND still you wanna bring arguments to not develop something that is needed by many customers. As usual, i’m eager to hear about constructive proposals to bring life to a tool some people need/want, which is the main point of this thread.

[jemmons]

@Blasted_pingin

i’m eager to hear about constructive proposals to bring life to a tool some people need/want

That cool! I say, whole heartedly, go you! You can get quite far reading a sequence of sysex dumps in Synalize It! changing just one property each time. Nothing stopping you and the sky is literally the limit!

But the moment someone starts asking anything of other people (to write code, to document a format, to support a third party tool, to sign a petition) if they didn’t consider the entirety of the potential costs of that ask, they’d kind of be being an entitled jerk, right? It’s not cool to ask favors when you don’t yourself know the costs, you know?

So it’s worth keeping an open mind about the downsides, too. Not as “arguments to not develop something”, but as a way of making sure everyone knows exactly what they’re asking for so no one accidentally looks like a ill-informed freeloader.

[bibenu]

@Blasted_pingin

you wanna bring arguments to not develop

I’m not bringing arguments to not develop, just trying to instill a sense of realism. Nothing I say is going stop anyone doing anything. I just happen to think it’s unlikely that Elektron will see any value in helping these things along. OTOH the digi boxes got song mode (which it was long claimed would never happen), and Deluge went open source, so what do I know.

[alisomay]

In threads which are addressing demands similar to this I encounter a lot of educated assumptions about why sharing/maintaining docs or just sharing docs in an unsupported form makes sense or doesn’t.

What I’d really fancy is a defining statement from the relevant Elektron dev team to say either we’ll consider it or we’re never going to consider this. I’m ok with both answers but it would clear the feeling of “maybe they’ll share the docs” situation.

My two cents on this is,
I think Elektron would benefit from flourishing 3rd party development but without knowing precise company state and internals it’s impossible to know for sure.

[KingDuppy]

Likewise, here’s the pattern and project management software I use, which is quite dear to me but not exactly user-friendly:

Field Notes makes a nice graph-ruled book that works well for electronic music management.

So does my current favorite notebook maker, HOBONICHI.

They just came out with this great alternative rule that I’m enjoying:

[jemmons]

Absolutely. Because there are valid cases where it would make sense as well as valid cases where it wouldn’t. As you note, only Elektron can know for sure, and I hope they respond to you with guidance.

But failing that, and lacking any greater understanding of the business, we have to keep an open mind regarding both the “makes sense” and the “does not make sense” scenarios. And, if possible, not read malevolent intent into either.

[Wick]

this is the way

[android]

Wait… you guys are playing the same song again???

I erase and write/program and hour or two of new songs for each performance.

Why the hell would I repeat myself, people already heard last months ideas… let’s move on.

Besides I’ve probably swapped out or sold the drum machines and synths I had plugged into my OT.

Writing from scratch is total freedom!
Don’t be lazy!

[warpigs330]

What do they have to gain by making such a defining statement? It only makes the future less flexible for them. I think that it is reasonable to expect that until the day when they announce open developer tools, that we can expect them to continue exactly as they have always done, keeping things closed and proprietary. As a huge open source fan, this is not ideal for me, I would adore an open SDK. But I think it has been very clear what Elektron’s stance is on who can develop firmware for their products.

[Lizard-of-Oz]

@jemmons

Yes, clearly the lesson of Web 2.0 is that open APIs win and everyone who built a walled, proprietary platform swiftly went out of business and are not now the most valuable companies in the world

If you’re hinting at Apple: their public APIs are the excellent and well-documented SDKs for MacOS, iOS, iPad OS.