Following a great discussion in the Movie Recommendation thread, I figured it was time to break out the discussion of the Dune novels into its own thread. Continuing where we left off from the excellent post by @hausland
I appreciate your perspective and your thoughtful response, but I came away from God Emperor with the opposite impression. Given the strong anti-messianic sentiment of the previous books (especially the third), I have a hard time seeing the authorial intent being an endorsement of the millennia-long reign of a despotic worm. My main argument there is that the only character that endorses this viewpoint is the Emperor himself. The moral center/perspective character of the book (the Duncan Idaho ghola) is vehemently opposed to it. And as I recall, the Golden Path failed or was largely unnecessary. As the later books flash forward thousands of years, Arrakis returns to desert and even Leto fades into myth. His goal of being so monstrous that he was never forgotten failed. That is as much of a rebuke as I can imagine. In this case, the ends did not justify the means. His vanity and perceived self-importance did not outlive him as he intended. Humanity kept moving right along in cycles of decadence and daring exploration, as it would without him.
I will say that from a meta-narrative perspective, I think that us discussing the morality of Leto II forty years after publication of God Emperor of Dune is probably something that would amuse Herbert to no end.
Other hot takes on the novels are fully welcomed here. Letās get a good discussion going and get nerdy in here!
Interesting take! My impression reading the book was that the Scattering (which I understood as part of the Golden Path) was an essential event for the survival of humanity, while also creating the conditions to challenge the Bene Gesserit enough to āpurifyā their action and intent down the storyline. Towards the last books, the Bene Gesserit morph from this cold hearted, political body towards the guardians and cultivators of all that is essentially true good and beautiful about humanityās existence & potential. Part of it was the effect of Letoās systematic (and deliberate) oppression of the Bene Gesserit. Itās also the Bene Gesserit that in later books refer to Letoās foresight spitefully, especially because they occasionally imply the recognition of some form of wisdom imbued into that foresightā¦and through that spite at times shines through a near marvel for Leto and his long-term cunningness. At least thatās how I read it
Even the Honored Matres are in a form, the explicit, caricatured expression of a perverted inner oppression that was/is hindering the Bene Gesserit from approaching their job as guardians of human evolution with love and holistically ā namely their oppression of emotions, love and sexuality. I felt especially in the last book, that Dar looked at the Honroed Matres as a form of mirror that confronted her with the historic shortcomings of the Bene Gesserit (after all, the Honored Matres are, to my understanding, a hybrid evolution of the Bene Gesserit and Letoās Fish Speakers).
Goes to show how different people draw different things from the same books they read
On a different note, my wife and I both found that Herbertās obsession at times with Duncan Idaho and his manhood/virility had some near homoerotic undercurrents that at times distracted him from the big political picture he was supposedly trying to draw across six books.
Overall, I enjoyed the read but thought Book 1 was easily the best of the series.
But then again, I LOVED the Expanse way more than Dune, so maybe I wasnāt exactly the audience either
read the first two in high school when Lynchās Dune came out. vaguely recall them being interesting to 14-year old me but not interesting enough to keep slogging through the rest of the series., apparently
I just wish that everyone that goes on a āDune is a White Savior Storyā rant would read Dune Messiah first.
I read them ages ago and reread Dune and Dune Messiah perhaps 5 years ago - Messiah was widely panned on release and people hated it because I guess they really wanted Paul to be a superbeing and didnāt like that Herbert explored what might happen when a revolution succeeds.
Things change pretty markedly from the midpoint of Children of Dune to God Emperor - and after that it started to feel like the fifth season of a show that only needed four.
I did like how, weird sandworm hybrid stuff aside, Leto became essentially worse than the old Emperor, Bene Gesserit and Spacing Guild rolled (ha) into one - complete with trying to breed Idaho Gholas with the nth descendant of his twin sister. (Becauseā¦ reasons? He wasnāt planning to die.)
Ignoring the ones written by Brian Herbert, I think Iād section the main books much like the latter pair of Hyperion novels by Brandon Sanderson are a big departure from the first two. So: Dune, Dune Messiah and most of Children of Dune, is group 1; God Emperor of Dune is its own batshit weird thing and then Heretics and Chapterhouse might as well be a different series that happens to be in the same universe.
In my most recent re-read (2/3 years ago), I knocked out the first four books in rapid succession. But I hit a wall when I made it to the fifth. I just put it on hold at the library, so I may try to finish off the core series now thatās Iām recharged and ready.
Yeah, four was focused on Duncan almost to the point of distraction. And itās always a tough read because itās pages and pages of philosophical monologue, but I think itās a pure distillation of the conflicts at the heart of the series.
I enjoyed reading your take on the books! Maybe Iām a bit more mistrustful when it comes to literature. I tend to assume an unreliable narrator or not to take a morally compromised characterās exposition at face value. But I will definitely keep a skeptical eye on the text as I read the final two books, with some of your opinions in mind. These points of view and dissections of the charactersā motivations are part of the fun.
Haha all good. Itās not like the first movie doesnāt show us visions of the holy war.
I rewatched it last night. Going to see part 2 tonight.
I remember in the book they talk at length about how Paulās visions are only one possible future. Iām not sure that was hammered in the first movie. It is more of a āshow donāt tellā situation with him seeing Jamis win the fight.
Okay so Denis Dune part II still doesnāt wrap up book 1? So there must be a part 3 that includes the last of book 1 and the rest of Paulās story from Messiah?
Edit/just clarifying that I watched part 2 last night.
Iād also highly recommend the Dune audio book series narrated by Scott Brick, Simon Vance, and a bunch of others (I listened to them all on Audible, but possible itās on other platforms too).
Itās a great performance all round from the voice actors, enjoyed it as much as the actual books.
I never caught that vibeā¦ I think he just saw Duncan as the one really heroic persona in the universe. Everyone else has major issues. Iād posit that Duncanās main issues are directly caused by everyone elseās issues.
I enjoy Simmonsās historical fiction (The Terror, The Abominable), but I havenāt tried his Hyperion series. What I enjoy most is how meticulously researched the technical historical details are (his descriptions of the ship provisioning or climbing gear/techniques). No clue how that would translate to sci-fi
