See also: The Paradox of Tolerance
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I always appreciate you @jemmons, I think this has been a quality discussion.
I just wanted to add a note to say — in an environment like this, every post really matters. Discussions can change mood or focus depending on just a few words here or there. Of course, this is why a noisy individual or two can unfortunately dominate the space, but it’s also an invitation to anyone who wants to participate and wants to see the community do well.
If you’re someone who enjoys Elektronauts and appreciates the conversations around here, I hope you’ll chime in and participate. A quick note to compliment someone’s setup, a YouTube link to a rad DJ mix you heard recently, a suggestion for the next Syntakt machine — it’s all welcome and helps keep this place the lovely community it is.
I believe there’s a lot of untapped potential in lurkers (in all online forums, really). I bet there are a lot of interesting, thoughtful, helpful, funny, oddball synth nerds out there who read along and would be a great addition to the party, if/when they choose to come on in.
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@TACHES has started a new Bitwig forum that has instituted a policy of “no I/me/my posts”. In practice, this means:
- If you have a problem you want to solve, you must ask how others solved it for themselves, not how they can solve it for you.
- Instead of stating “I think this about this”, you have to ask what others think. You can then share your opinion in the comments the same way as they are.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE:
How do I do achieve X?
How did you achieve X?
OR
I think Y.
What do you think about Y?
How do we feel about this approach?
For my part, I’m excited to see how it works out. It’s too stringent a rule to apply to an already sprawling culture like Elektronauts in my estimation. But having it be part of the groundwork of a new community could work out. And the people there are embracing it enthusiastically. Will this answer what a community will look like if we ask questions instead of complaining?
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It feels like it would inevitably end up with people just contorting themselves to ask the same questions and talk about the same things they always were, but putting it in slightly different language. Also I don’t think it is very useful to tell people that they basically shouldn’t ask for advice for their specific situation. I understand the intention behind it, but it feels a bit artificial. Like the classic troubleshooting problem, sending left and right into a balanced input. Should people say “How do you connect your synth to your interface?” and hope that someone else has the same setup as them? As opposed to just asking “This is my setup. What have I done wrong?”
Also the whole “what do you think about Y” instead of, “I think Y” feels like going into a conversation at a bar, and the person you are talking to really wants to tell you what they feel about a thing, but they feel like they can’t just say it, so they ask you how you feel about the thing, and then as soon as the door is opened they talk about the thing they were always wanting to talk about. The question doesn’t come from a genuine questioning place, it is just a means to an end, with pleasantries.
I dunno, it feels a little bit like work slack where someone wants something specific, but does a whole “Good morning, how are you doing today?” “I hope you had a good holiday!” “Oh here’s what I need”. They don’t actually care about my day or my holidays, they just need me to do something. It all feels a bit perfunctory. But then again I can be a bit of small talk hater, preferring people to just get to the point.
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Well written. Here’s an interesting example of a support structure:
What is the problem?
Using more than 2 step fx is not possible.
What do you want to achieve?
To be able to use more fx per step maybe it would be possible to have a “through” instrument.
With which the referenced track to the left will be able to use 2 more fx. So you give up a step in the neighbouring track to use its effect calculating power.
Are there any workarounds?
Render to audio
Any links to related discussions?
Probably asked for a lot but really couldnt find.
Maybe asked for a lot for the OG tracker, but the Mini perhaps really has the possiblity in processing power.
Similar request has been made for the OG Tracker
Any references to other products?
Octatracks Thru machines?
This is an interesting example. Here’s a thread where “this is my setup…” is being asked. 60+ posts later the answer is “there’s no one rule, you have to learn it”.
The poster and everyone in that thread would have been better served had they asked “How do you deal with balanced cables?” given that’s the question we ended up answering, anyway.
The work slack is a very different dynamic, though. You’re literally being paid to do what needs. And any request is under the implicit threat of being fired if you refuse. So small talk and pleasantries can feel like wasting time or even disingenuous — I‘m doing this because I’m obligated, don’t pretend like we’re friends.
But social communities of casual participants are rarely so results-oriented. This is especially true of communities built around learning. There’s a certain amount of “If I knew enough to ask a specific question, I wouldn’t need to ask” baked in. Asking open questions is easier for someone learning.
And, perhaps more importantly, being able to read the wider range of responses solicited by open vs. closed questions is just better for the education of the community. If that’s what one’s going for (which I believe is the case with this new Bitwig forum).
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I’m neither answering the broader question nor the topic per se, but with regards to this particular ‘nuance’ of how to re-spin something (i’ve annotated a/b), it’s alas something which, i fear from my own observations, has been long understood by those really wanting to see the aftermath of posting (a) but not wanting any of the responsibility of (a) … so you get (b) as a soft-stir
so fwiw, i think policing a title is not even half the battle, what will out will out if people want the dopamine of a conflict to watch over … the most obvious cases are when the op does not ever offer an opinion, nor contribute thereafter … it’s almost like 101 shit-stirring tactics (i’m humoured slightly by this laudable optimism)
anyway, it can be a good idea, but there will always be a way to circumvent it
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This is my kneejerk reaction to it as well, but my kneejerk reaction is also very wrong very often, so maybe it could work? Maybe it’s because I see some of myself in this description and in my own lived patterns.
This is one particular benefit, particularly if the asker isn’t entirely sure what their question is. On the other hand, if someone has a very specific question and needs a very specific answer, directly asking is better both for them and for anyone else who searches for answers to the problem in the future in relation to the question they have.
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Totally agree. And I’m betting in this case it’s less about “these are the titles that are allowed” and more “this is the kind of question we want to build a community to engage with”. Policing the titles are a part of that, of course. But just one lever to incentivize a certain kind of culture, which is the actual goal.
I don’t disagree. But a reason “What do you think about 𝑌?” has become such a goto shit-stirring tactic is that, from the outside, it is indistinguishable from a legitimate question a beginner eager to learn might ask. So we can’t dismiss it out of hand.
And really, should we even if we could? Part of the effect of this formulation is it devalues the question. It’s the answers in response that are valuable. If someone asks a disingenuous question, but serious, engaged answers result, isn’t that a win for the community?
So I don’t think there much benefit in weeding out open questions, disingenuous or not. Rather the focus should be on moderating loaded questions. A beginner could mistakenly ask these in good faith as well. But that’s much more clear moderation target (IMHO? You tell me — I believe I’m hopelessly naive about this).
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Agreed 100%.
Over-positivism might also lead to over-consumerism which is not a good thing.
I have to be honest, the only mention of positivism I see in this thread of people arguing against the idea, as if there are people arguing for it.
But no one is arguing for it. In fact, most of the people pitching ideas here are going out of their way to explicitly say “this isn’t about positive vs. negative comments.”
So help me understand, what is it you’re reacting to in making the pitch that over-positivism can be a bad thing? Because of course it can. But I don’t see anyone saying it can’t, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to contribute?
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I’m of two minds about this.
The sentiment behind this thread is good and with that in mind people should always take the intention of a poster into consideration, if you’re someone who’s not able to do that then forum life probably isn’t for you… on a more personal level my opinion on something like this is that as long as personal attacks on forum members, and developers is discouraged (and I don’t mean expressions of disdain for an instrument or feature that has frustrated you) then all should be well…
This thread is not about controlling someone’s tone, or way of speaking, or about positivity vs negativity is all fine and good but we should be careful with even the perception of it lest that become reality, and I think we do this by understanding that this is one community but it is not one culture neither globally or personally nor should it be… so we are many cultures on many different levels making up one community… we should avoid making the mistake of conflating the two.
I think we should let people talk how they talk, moderate and even demand respect, understand that every thread, comment, or post is not for everyone, and let people who relate respond in kind and those who don’t have a conversation in a thread that’s more appropriate for them, like a real community.
I think there could be some improvement on letting conversations evolve naturally, because that’s what a real conversation does… as long as they remain respectful then in my opinion there should be less capping at the knees and things should be allowed to breathe… unless we want a real time interactive reference wiki or bulletin board as opposed to a community, that would lessen the unnecessary flagging that happens from time to time as well.
I said I’m of two minds about this now here is the other one… we have to decide if we want this place to be like a community or to be like someone’s house in the community, my opinion on the prior I’ve already stated but my opinion on the latter is much more simple… this is elektrons house, as long as talking about beatmachines is allowed here I will be here and everything else is unimportant or secondary at best, I believe whomever’s house you are in makes the rules and I don’t really care to go beyond that… a Host does not have to be inclusive, open minded, considerate, or flexible, they just have to let the rules be known and that is the end of the discussion… This isn’t a public space and we have to keep that in mind while making distinctions about how far into the perception of a community the host wants this place to go.
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I like being positive, it’s my favorite!
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@jemmons is a bastion of support, along with @NearTao
@sezare56 is great for the elektron side if I recall
@captain8 with the samples
and too many more to name… but I feel like the changing attitudes on here killed alot of what made me, like the Biweekly sample challenge, as I havent heard from aarb or nate in a minute…
The 404 thread died down once that looper got implemented, and very few post gear specific music to the threads, which is a delight to hear ans sorely missed… I think @tovia comes to mind as still posting a bunch on that thread…
I appreciate all these homies (non gender specific), since most of them have been here for the years that i have been involved
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I signed up and joined in the presentation call and it was full of nice people that took time to listen to each other’s track snippets and give feedback. That quality attention is hard to get and everyone were open minded and polite without seeming strained.
I think this the worries have been blown out of proportion. The way the framework and initial messaging was formulated tripped me up but there seems to be good intentions behind it, not an overgrown desire for control. It’s not like it’s bad advice, let’s see how it plays out
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There are some people that see the glass as 1/2 empty.
Trying to make them believe it’s 1/2 full and express that is their daily lives/attitudes/elektron posts is a moot point.
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No need, that post was for you and the rest.
Are you expecting a heart?
There are plenty of people around so yes, but it’s not the motivation for the post. I was going to say that we’re going OT but ironically, we’re on topic.
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