The ratio of support to complaining?

Elektronauts Elektronauts Feedback
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Summoned again… Interesting topic, and honestly super valuable topic, that if not for the @ I would absolutely never hit.

A few thoughts come to mind for me…

  1. How do you define the best users, and how do they set an example?
  2. How do you reward good behavior and punish bad behavior?
  3. Why do good contributors leave?

I am likely not qualified to answer either honestly, and really only have opinions on the topic which may not really help. I’ll just take myself as the example and how I feel I contribute…

So first… I would place myself as a poor contributor of the site. I scrub a handful of threads (maybe 2-4) daily… I am mostly looking to see if there are interesting topics, maybe discussions I can help add to. This makes my engagement fairly low, perhaps even more so for super active threads because questions are generally answered and I don’t feel it necessary to add a QFT or general minutia that adds to post count but is just taking up space. I’d probably check out more of the site but I have to manage my own personal time, I don’t have most of the gear being discussed, and there are other places I scrub like gearspace, modwigglers, mpc forums, etc… there just is not enough time in the day for me. I’d probably give my engagement at most of these sites these days a B- for a letter grade though. I am a low quantity contributor who at least tries to add more value than I take away.

Second… The contortions mentioned for some of the other sites like bitwig seem like ideas with good intent but likely terrible in practice. MPC Forums is my example here, which is moderated quite well as ‘stay on topic’ or else. The else is usually deletion of threads and comments, and not doing this has lead to a handful of bans. That said, the site used to have a crazy, but fun, off topic section. It was a no mans land, and got some of the most toxic posts you could imagine. Off Topic unfortunately just had no rules and as a result attracted a lot of bad behavior, that started to leak into other parts of the site. Tutor eventually decided to pull the plug on off topic, and despite some community sadness, it also almost immediately drove off some of the worst actors. Is MPC Forums a better place with or without off topic? I am not sure… but I can guarantee I would have left had something not been done to clean up the worst behavior.

Third… For me… I usually leave threads because they go stale, the conversations have moved someplace else, or I don’t learn anything more from them. I am less interested in how or if I contribute, and more what am I getting out of the thread. I try and keep up with the 404, P-6, MPC, M8, and OP-XY threads. Sure I have a lot of other gear, but stuff like the Move thread doesn’t hit my radar, I just don’t have the time… and I cannot master everything. I usually leave sites because they are dead or toxic. I hardly bother with sp-forums anymore… though I really wish it was more active… but trolls and bots gutted the site which is too bad really. I do see a worrying trend in a lot of places, and that is with the outright hate for specific devices. I won’t name them or risk derailing the topic, but there is a groundswell of people who seem to show up just to bait or troll people because it is trendy I guess? To me it is just weird, because I just want to learn how to get better at anything I do and teach people that they can make art with whatever they’ve got, if only they just try.

Where does this all leave me? I showed up at Elektronauts feeling like a tourist. I don’t have any Elektron gear though sure I would enjoy using it. The 404 thread was probably the best most friendly place to discuss the 404 at the time, and maybe still is… and I am still shocked that I have made just a completely ridiculous amount of 404 videos and content. My ‘home’ used to be mpc forums… and kind if still is, but even there I don’t contribute much anymore. There are plenty of knowledgable folks there already who usually answer faster than I can. Overall though… I still feel like a tourist on this site… which honestly is not a bad thing…

Have a great day all, and don’t stop trying to make your own spaces better :grinning:

Edit: I have no idea what stat ratios are good, but had to chuckle at my own, of course when I look I have 404 posts lol.

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84

This is everything to me.

And i would take it a step further, and say that the bad workflow design, or complicated functionality can help foster good ideas, because they are the ones that truly survive a half an hour of manual reading or forum banter to get to a solution.

The one thing I think I share with NearTao, and Jemmons, is a love for the 404, and respect its limitations and esoteric button presses. These are factors that must be taken into account if recommending the device to others. It is not the perfect machine by any stretch, and if I didnt own it, I would definitely be on an Octatrack. But the riddle of making music on it can be solved, as it is finite in it functionality, as is all devices.

The other commonality I share with these two fine gentleman is the time and intention spent on devices shows us flaws and glitches, and allows us to problem solve most issues, within our own production, and that of others. It seems to have slowed down with the lifecycle of the 404 specifically becoming mature with 4 complete firmware revisions.

But is anything perfect when making music, god I hope not. Compromise is inherent in all art (Im so glad NearTao used this phrasing)… so having the perfect machine (which I feel is a modern MPC at this point or a traditional DAW) can stifle creativity.

A little sand and irritation makes pearls.

All the other factors of a forum, toxicity, over/under moderation, is just humanity, which I suffer greatly from, as I am plagued by the human condition at this point.

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Having opinions about things is fine, despite it being odd to me when people extend these opinions beyond a logical context. It’s when these opinions on a device start being applied to individuals… so going from “this device is overpriced” to “people who own this device are terrible people who must be attacked”. It feels very much like grade school maturity level “us vs them” mentality, where you can no longer be friends with somebody because they have a different video game console than you do.

I’m a naturally curious person, so while there are a multitude of reasons a particular device may not be for me, I’m confident that I can ask somebody what they see in a device, what alternatives they considered and how the device is special to them, and get very interesting and meaningful answers. I fundamentally don’t understand the strange attraction some people have with finding ways to hate something, then gravitate to those people so they can spread a message about how terrible it is and anybody who likes it is terrible.

I just recently had somebody hop onto one of my streams, berate me and the viewers for discussing how to use two devices together, and then take off. I briefly tried to address it, but it felt like a big waste of energy from both sides. While streaming I looked up the person, who runs what seems to be a successful business, clearly practices religion, and tries to present themself as a music authority. I considered entertaining a discussion with the individual, but honestly I don’t want to give them the platform, going to church doesn’t necessarily mean somebody is a caring person, I didn’t feel right in otherwise doxxing the person in any way, and I probably don’t really care what the person has to say anyways.

I mean heck, look at the insanely silly situation “Bad Gear” is in, with people making gross assumptions about why his video was taken down, using it to further hate on a company and product line, and Florian having to try and issue statements about what really happened. His statements are absolutely getting lost in the noise and fervor, which just further fuels all the hate. It’s super easy to make assumptions, present content as having some form of journalistic integrity that it doesn’t have, and creating drama which gets views, and is rewarded with ad revenue.

At the end of the day, all this complaining and misinformation just sounds, and feels rather exhausting to me. I’m glad I can do whatever I do in this space for fun and education, and I have my day job to actually pay the bills. It also means I effectively make little money in this space, but I also don’t owe anybody anything from what I do and can just pack up if I wanted to.

And maybe that’s the thing… it’s not about the support to complaint ratio… it’s how are people treating each other. Highlight the good and bad of the products, but you don’t have to be a jerk about it. The gear we own doesn’t inherently make us better or worse producers, and at the end of the day the question should be whether we are enjoying the journey of learning the gear, sharing our experiences, and making worthwhile music with this stuff…

Time to stop naval gazing for now though, and get back to making some music!

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My two cranky thoughts about complaining:

  1. Anecdotally, here, the most vocal complainers tend not to be very well informed. This checks out, since the other options for bad gear—research and then know to avoid, or try out and resell at a marginal loss if it doesn’t work out—seem pretty simple, and ultimately less time-consuming than some of the yelling into the void I see.
  2. One way to think about consumerism: when you feel strongly that your choice of product reflects something important about who you are. While taste is inevitable, I find that heated arguments about company philosophies, begging for features that match the microtonal 13/8 fantasy in one’s head, and passionate complaining, all seem like versions of the same trap.
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I try to surround myself with people that are supportive and distance myself from the complainers. Life’s a lot easier this way!

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Teach me wise one! haha. Im dealing with a “bait and switch” with community that says they like me, but everything about our interactions say differently.

This is actually alot of the truth… the anger is fueled by frustration. And if you arent informed about what your doing, you wont know how to recognize what the gear does. But You HAve To Buy The Gear To Learn What You Are Doing!!!

The joy and the gift of understanding through time and effort is understated. I now look at new gear and can spot what it is, and what is being oversold… and I can see that most gear does similar things to what I already own… I think after my recent vst and sample pack purchases, hopefully I can stop that side of my gas as well.

Bet!

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That’s the first and probably last time I’ll be called wise!

Kill them with kindness! People tell you who they are, believe them!

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I tried that… Im in Chicago… that is being exploited and its misconstrued as weakness

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If a crew takes kindness as a weakness, your probably in the wrong crew!

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I know! Its not everyone, but people shy away from drama… and they arent as vocal as the bullys.

Plus I dont have any other… maybe its time to grow up and just make the music on my own… youre right… enough of my complaining! And i got support! So not too bad of a tangent on this thread… still on topic!!

Thanks Kegz

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This is a thing I struggle with. I linked above to the paradox of tolerance and I think about it a lot. It’s easy to post non-constructive hot takes, and takes effort to post constructive feedback. And as a result, I’ve been a member of many communities that started as constructive places to learn and share that were eventually overwhelmed by non-constructive shit posting and owning.

And I followed the same pattern with each. Blocked the people spouting noise until there was nothing left that wasn’t being blocked. Then I moved on because who has the time?

But if those who care don’t take an active hand in the culture, then the fate of all communities is to eventually be overrun by shit posting in this way. It’s just entropy, and without active opposition entropy always wins.

So I don’t know. I’m also in Chicago, so at least not everyone here will exploit kindness. But at the same time I’m not a member of any local synth scenes because the potential for it all to be a giant drama sink and distraction from making music is so very real.

My motto has always been “Deeds not Words” (this despite the number of words I write here :sweat: ). Kill them with kindness, as Kergz says. And nothing kills harder and more kindly than making everyone jealous of the sick beats you’ve made with the time you didn’t spend on drama.

But at the same time, my unwillingness to engage in any of this is, in a way, enabling the drama you’re suffering from. If we don’t take the time to build good communities, then by definition only bad communities will exist. I guess taking the time is what I’m hamfistedly trying to do in this thread.

It’s a constant conundrum to me.

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Yep! Killing people with kindness doesn’t mean bend over and take whatever they give you!

Just being yourself self and doing what you want in a non disruptive manner can be the best kindness to spread! And it will usually do two things. Be infectious to those that matter and drive away those that don’t!

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Yeah.

This is the stuff. And if they want to jump me, then Im literally fighting for what I love.

Luckily they are not running anything. That would be devastating. So Im free to participate. I took a break from IG because of this even though I’m popping off. So my intention is to get back into therapy to get well enough to leave Chicago for Japan in the summer.

And I’m gonna use my time to release my own finished songs instead of flipping beats.

@jemmons I hope I expressed that it’s not everyone. Dj Uncle El is a legend, and I consider him a friend. I also am acquainted to DJ Intel and Phantom45. And Moecyrus. All legends in their own right. So there are beautiful people in the game as well. My job is to not respond to the toxicity, because that creates toxicity.

Edit: This convo got me inspired now!! i know I need to go away from the scene a bit. But it not like my musical ability will falter… if anything, I will make better music because there isnt any performance dictating expectations or samples locking me into a certain sound… I am free to make whatever I am able to.

That being said,

I finally realized what this means…!!! I need to go hard… just really aggressive with my production… break concrete and shatter walls with my sound… not loudness, just nasty… its time to get Nasty like Janet!!!

I literally looked around and thought “wait a minute… I have it all right here!” The gear and the understanding has been earned! Lets Go!

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